#16

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:08 pm
by logburner (deleted)
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OOhhh!! What a can of worms we have opened here.....


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#17

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:52 pm
by Aaron Calder | 3.834 Posts

As a regular aspirin user and hence more likely to suffer stomach and intestinal bleeding than the general population, I was recently asked to participate in a long-term medical study aimed at determining whether or not the elimination of a particular gut bacterium known to cause stomach ulcers by the administration of a specific antibiotic would eliminate the risk of ulcer formation in aspirin users.

When the initial tests results are returned and if I am carrying the bacterium in question, I will randomly be given either a course of antibiotics or a course of placebos following which I and all the other participants will be monitored for signs of ulcer formation over a five-year period. At the end of the study, a decision will be made whether or not to offer the antibiotic to all people who are prescribed aspirin by their GPs.

The important point here is that during the trial I will not be told whether I am receiving the antibiotic or the placebo. This is the way scientific trials are carried out to eliminate subjective bias in the sample population.

My point was that one's opinion as to whether or not one fuel is somehow 'better' than another is subject to personal perception and subjective bias and lacks academic rigour. As we know, consumers are influenced in their purchasing decisions by skilful and manipulative advertising and therefore have enhanced expectations about their choices. Obviously, if we are paying 10p a litre more for 'Shell Super Whizzo' than for 'Tesco Boggo Standard' we will expect it to be better and may unconsciously modify our driving to ensure that we do get more mpg or produce less exhaust smoke.

A current television series is evaluating selected households' food buying decisions and replacing their regular purchases with cheaper alternatives in order to save them money. Interestingly, when given some of their usual purchases in plain packaging, many of the people involved cannot identify the bread, breakfast cereal, baked beans and beverages that they consume every day. A common theme is that the subjects of the study look down on 'own brands' as being inferior to the well-known brands because they cost less and are not as attractively packaged. Could the same be true of the fuels that we put in our cars? It's a legitimate question to ask.

It would be very interesting if some of the drivers who are so adamant that they can tell the difference between supermarket and premium fuels were subjected to a similar blind study over an extended period. Their vehicles could be filled by a third party either with cheap or top price fuel but they would not be told which was currently in their tank. Throughout the survey the drivers would be required to record their impressions of each fuelling of their vehicles and then say which fuel they thought that they were using.

I obviously have no way of knowing what the outcome would be but I would be very surprised if the drivers' predictive accuracy was statistically valid, my bet being that it would be as near as damnit to 50:50 and no better than tossing a coin.


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#18

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:36 pm
by Agger (deleted)
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Quote: Aaron Calder wrote in post #17
As a regular aspirin user and hence more likely to suffer stomach and intestinal bleeding than the general population, I was recently asked to participate in a long-term medical study aimed at determining whether or not the elimination of a particular gut bacterium known to cause stomach ulcers by the administration of a specific antibiotic would eliminate the risk of ulcer formation in aspirin users.

When the initial tests results are returned and if I am carrying the bacterium in question, I will randomly be given either a course of antibiotics or a course of placebos following which I and all the other participants will be monitored for signs of ulcer formation over a five-year period. At the end of the study, a decision will be made whether or not to offer the antibiotic to all people who are prescribed aspirin by their GPs.

The important point here is that during the trial I will not be told whether I am receiving the antibiotic or the placebo. This is the way scientific trials are carried out to eliminate subjective bias in the sample population.

My point was that one's opinion as to whether or not one fuel is somehow 'better' than another is subject to personal perception and subjective bias and lacks academic rigour. As we know, consumers are influenced in their purchasing decisions by skilful and manipulative advertising and therefore have enhanced expectations about their choices. Obviously, if we are paying 10p a litre more for 'Shell Super Whizzo' than for 'Tesco Boggo Standard' we will expect it to be better and may unconsciously modify our driving to ensure that we do get more mpg or produce less exhaust smoke.

A current television series is evaluating selected households' food buying decisions and replacing their regular purchases with cheaper alternatives in order to save them money. Interestingly, when given some of their usual purchases in plain packaging, many of the people involved cannot identify the bread, breakfast cereal and beverages that they eat every day. A common theme is that the subjects of the study look down on 'own brands' as being inferior to the well-known brands because they cost less and are not as attractively packaged. Could the same be true of the fuels that we put in our cars? It's a legitimate question to ask.

It would be very interesting if some of the drivers who are so adamant that they can tell the difference between supermarket and premium fuels were subjected to a similar blind study over an extended period. Their vehicles could be filed by a third party either with cheap or top price fuel but they would not be told which was currently in their tank. Throughout the survey the drivers would be required to record their impressions of each fuelling of their vehicles and then say which fuel they thought that they were using.

I obviously have no way of knowing what the outcome would be but I would be very surprised if the drivers' predictive accuracy was statistically valid, my bet being that it would be as near as damnit to 50:50 and no better than tossing a coin.



I don't care! I buy Heinz baked beans because I like them, I buy the fuel I choose because I can We all do things differently, it's just about respecting the other persons view, which I do, but thanks I'll still be buying my Shell high grade diesel


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#19

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:44 pm
by crow (deleted)
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The late Rob Jax who was a petro chemical engineer said;
"The premium fuels like Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate and Total Excellium are a totally different bag, and worth the price uplift."

As the UK representative to CEN on motor vehicle fuel standards, I do have a little experience in this area:
Read more at http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/to...aK4RGTm2GEW1.99

I just point out that Rob Jax wrote on many caravan forums.



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#20

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:46 pm
by Aaron Calder | 3.834 Posts

Ah, the cut and thrust of intelligent debate.


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#21

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:14 am
by Agger (deleted)
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Quote: Aaron Calder wrote in post #20
Ah, the cut and thrust of intelligent debate.


Would you use the cheapest tyres you could find on your car? I doubt it, I choose to use premium fuel because "I think" it makes my car car run better, sound quieter, give more vroooooom, I have no proof it does! You have no proof it doesn't therefore we have differing opinions, I don't see a problem with that at all.


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#22

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:16 am
by Wordspace (deleted)
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Quote: Aaron Calder wrote in post #20
Ah, the cut and thrust of intelligent debate.

Seems to me as if there are now two separate debates here. One: the actual tested quality of pump fuels. Two: people's perception of their own combination of fuel and engine.

I think the anecdote contained in Crow's link, the one about the Millers additive, is illustrative. A product has a good reputation; we think it might work for us; we try it and find it does give us good results according to predictions; but actual testing shows that our finding is purely subjective, wish fulfilment.

To go back to Aaron Calder's analogy, there's something in my blog (link below: see "Doctor knows best") about placebos and nocebos that might throw some light on this, if anyone cares enough to look.


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#23

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:34 am
by crow (deleted)
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"As the UK representative to CEN on motor vehicle fuel standards, I do have a little experience in this area:"
Rob Jax was an expert there was no "perception" about his views, they were based on fact


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#24

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:08 am
by Wordspace (deleted)
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Quote: crow wrote in post #23
"As the UK representative to CEN on motor vehicle fuel standards, I do have a little experience in this area:"
Rob Jax was an expert there was no "perception" about his views, they were based on fact

That's precisely my point. The perception was in the mind of the man who added Miller's to his fuel irrespective of the fact that it was already up to the highest spec his engine could cope with. Jax gave him the facts.

Who's to say what is right. Like Agger, if I ate Tesco's baked beans I'd have rotten wind for the rest of the day, but Heinz Beans go down a treat. But being a cheapskate I put Tesco's 95 in my car, and it goes ok.


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#25

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:45 pm
by Aaron Calder | 3.834 Posts

1. There is no such thing as 'supermarket fuel.' No supermarket chain in the UK owns a refinery. The fuels sold by supermarkets and the big petrol brands come out of the same tanks at the distribution depots, the only differences being the additives put into each compartment of the tanker via a precision metering system at the time of loading. Needless to say, the formulations of these additive packs are closely guarded trade secrets.

2. All fuels sold throughout the Europe Union have to meet strict European quality standards. There are therefore no 'rubbish' fuels on sale.

3. Some people say that they can detect a change in their car's performance depending on which fuel is being used while others say they cannot. However in every case of which I am aware, the driver knew what was in the tank at the time of the 'test'. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been any blind testing to remove subjective bias.

4. In the recent television food programme to which I referred, a woman who was a self-declared baked bean fanatic with a prodigious monthly consumption and who would only ever eat Heinz brand, when presented with samples in unmarked packaging said she didn't like the Heinz ones and much preferred far cheaper beans sourced from Asda. Whether we like it or not, we are all influenced by marketing psychology.

5. All I was suggesting was that if subjected to a blind testing of cheap and premium fuels, drivers similarly may not be able to tell the difference and if anyone was offended by this suggestion or decided to perceive it as a personal criticism then that is their problem for which I make no apology.

6. On the question of tyres (not one that I raised), well, if independent tests of a variety of makes showed that Hong Phooeys were every bit as good as Michelins but at half the price then yes, I wouldn't hesitate to have them fitted to my car. To do otherwise would be ridiculous.

7. When faced with any sweeping generalisation such as "all supermarket fuels are crap," I will continue to ask to be shown the evidence supporting the assertion and not base my convictions on subjective perception and anecdote.


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#26

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:06 pm
by hob (deleted)
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My view on the subject, I like to shop locally with the "little man" as much as I can with a view that if we all go to the nearest supermarket soon there will be no other retailers left with the result that high streets will be deserted and garage forecourts will become abandoned eyesores.............we already see lots of them in our travels.

As for the fuel I will not try to make a case either way only to say loads of people use supermarket fuel without the engines breaking.

Shopping with your local "little man" may cost a little more sometimes but I feel better for doing it.


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#27

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:53 pm
by crow (deleted)
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I came across this on the Briskoda site, more to do with 2SO really
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=91383
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/


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#28

RE: Adding two-stroke oil to diesel

in Anything that's not Eriba-related. Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:46 pm
by Psycho (deleted)
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I use this in my tank along with BP diesel, and it DOES make a big difference, and has the scientific testing to prove it works...!
http://www.dieselrhino.co.uk


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