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Petrol towcar

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#16

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:33 pm
by Aaron Calder •

| 3.834 Posts

Nobody needs a diesel car to tow an Eriba.

Diesel emissions are known to cause in the region of 20,000 premature deaths in the UK alone every year and are causing allergies and stunted lung development in inner city children.

The EU has set down emissions standards that manufacturers are required to meet but VAG used hidden software to cheat these tests.

What did the EU do in response to this scandal? Did they decide to enforce the new standards rigorously and penalise manufacturers that were unable to meet them?

Of course they didn't. An EU technical committee has voted to double the permitted emission levels so as to ensure that manufacturers will be able to meet them. If you don't believe me, have a look here: Guardian EU caves in to auto industry

And in the meantime, the owners of highly polluting diesel vehicles will continue to pay less road tax than the owners of more environmentally friendly petrol engined vehicles.

You couldn't make it up!

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#17

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:51 pm
by Randa france •

| 13.283 Posts

I'm not qualified to debate your argument against diesel engines Brian but surely the worldwide environmental impact of petroleum exploration, extraction, transportation and refining must be a huge consideration.
Therefore if a diesel engine is a 25% more economical than a petrol engine then this must count in its favour.
Randa

1999 Eriba Troll 530 pushing a VW Touran 2L TDi Match

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#18

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:32 pm
by Deeps (deleted)

Quote: Aaron Calder wrote in post #16

Diesel emissions are known to cause in the region of 20,000 premature deaths in the UK alone every year and are causing allergies and stunted lung development in inner city children.

Playing the Devils Advocate here for a moment, I have to say that whilst to a certain extent I echo your sentiments and the reasoning behind it, I also need to add that you are being - in my opinion of course - somewhat selective and unjustifiably bias in your opinion.

I feel sure that were we to reverse the actions of Beeching and invest more in the railways and oblige - yes, oblige - hauliers to transport their goods by rail, diesel emissions would be more than halved in an instant. But of course that would mean that when we order something from Amazon & Co we'd have to wait a few extra days for it to land on the doormat instead of the next day deliveries we have come to enjoy. And along with that, this fictitious caring society of ours could self impose a maximum of 1 foreign holiday a year which involves flights and cut out altogether holiday cruises which both pollute the seas with rubbish, damage marine life and add tons of unnecessary CO2 to the atmosphere. Let's also not forget petrol powered cars whilst we're at it for although their exhausts might well create less pollution than diesel powered cars, every element in their production causes pollution right from the precious metals which comprise their electrical systems right up to the battery that keeps the things running. What do they do with all the casings, metals and plastic components and we won't even mention spent tyres.

In short - I could present an argument that would take up an entire servers capability in presenting ways in which humans could minimize their impact on the planet but they would all have one thing in common, and that is that the human race - in particular the populations of more advanced countries would have to make considerable personal sacrifices to their expected standards of living to have things change. Sadly, in most cases this is what most people would find hard to give up.

So yes, whilst your post is factually correct even as far as the selected quote, it is very limited in it's scope and I fee sure that there are many other aspects of everyday living that are having a negative impact on the health of inner-city children - poverty and an unfair distribution of wealth to state but one.

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#19

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:59 pm
by Aaron Calder •

| 3.834 Posts

Quote: Randa france wrote in post #17
I'm not qualified to debate your argument against diesel engines Brian but surely the worldwide environmental impact of petroleum exploration, extraction, transportation and refining must be a huge consideration.
Therefore if a diesel engine is a 25% more economical than a petrol engine then this must count in its favour.
Randa

It's not my argument, Roger. The facts speak for themselves.

Governments keen to leap onto the global warming bandwagon saw the claimed reduced carbon dioxide emissions of diesels when compared with petrol engined vehicles as a simple way to meet their CO2 emissions targets. They therefore encouraged motorists to switch from petrol to diesel by the use of financial incentives. I've just renewed my road tax for £265 which is higher than that paid by the owner of a 2 litre diesel based purely on the erroneous assumption that I emit more CO2.

Unfortunately, the science was flawed as all the comparisons were carried out under laboratory and not real world conditions taking no account of the annual mileages or driving conditions. The unintended consequence of this was that oxides of nitrogen and particulates that are emitted when diesels are running at their most inefficient - in urban environments - rose to alarming levels causing major health problems particularly among children, the elderly and anyone with pre-existing coronary or pulmonary disease.

If you follow the link in the Guardian article, diesel pollution you will see that London's annual NO2 allowance was used up in just three weeks of monitoring. Someone clearly got his sums wrong.

When thousands of people died in the 'Great London Smog' of 1952 that was caused by fog droplets combining with visible, choking pollution from coal fires, the government responded robustly with the 1956 and 1968 Clean Air Acts which made it illegal to emit black smoke from industrial premises and introduced 'smoke control areas'. The problem with pollution from diesels which is just as (if not more) dangerous than that from coal fires is that it is invisible and hence far easier to ignore.

Given the lobbying power of European car manufacturers and governmental self interest in protecting their vehicle manufacturing industries and balances of payments, it is hardly surprising that no similar response has been forthcoming.

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#20

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:03 pm
by Aaron Calder •

| 3.834 Posts

Quote: Deeps wrote in post #18

So yes, whilst your post is factually correct even as far as the selected quote, it is very limited in it's scope and I fee sure that there are many other aspects of everyday living that are having a negative impact on the health of inner-city children - poverty and an unfair distribution of wealth to state but one.

But this thread is about diesel and petrol engine comparisons so much of what you say is irrelevant in this context.

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#21

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:30 pm
by Agger (deleted)

My road tax is £30 which I really like we worry about enough in life already without bickering about something which the Governers of this world cannot agree on how to tackle, so I doubt our two pennyworth would even get looked at.

I like what I drive, and I for one just can't see how anyone thinks it will improve their asthma or other serious chest lung problem? Unless it is done on a global basis! Sorry and I've suffered with breathing problems for my entire life, carry 3 inhalers and have oxygen, however I walk whenever possible, instead of getting in the car to go 150m to the shop to get my paper, milk, baccy whatever! Sorry just saying

Mind you at least on here we can debate! Apparently there is another place which BANS people for even chatting to each other!!!

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#22

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:17 pm
by KeithF (deleted)

hI Nev as you know we are Eriba less for now but towed with a two litre x trail diesel and a two and a half litre petrol auto ,the petrol has more umphf and the auto wins due to less faffing with gears ,good luck with your new car .
kEith

#23

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:23 pm
by Pepé Le Pew •

| 2.752 Posts

If anyone has a few minutes to kill, doing a bit of Googling on marine diesel engine pollution makes for interesting if rather depressing reading.

Big container ships (for example) use 'bunker fuel' to power their colossal engines - and I mean colossal; the biggest marine diesels produce anything between 40 and 100 thousand brake horse power and up to 5 million foot-pounds of torque at between 20 and 100 rpm. The cylinders have a bore of about three feet and the twenty-foot high pistons weigh five tons.

That kind of colossal.

Bunker fuel is the dregs left over when everything else useful apart from asphalt has been distilled from it. It has to be heated to reduce its viscosity enough for the engines to burn it, and stone cold is just about thick enough to walk on.

And it's cheap.

I won't attempt to vouch for the veracity of a series of articles (following one published by The Guardian in 2009) which report that the fifteen biggest container ships produce more sulphur dioxide and oxides of nitrogen in their exhaust than virtually all the cars in use on the planet, but even if it's only half correct it's a sobering thought, and just goes to show what levels of utter hypocrisy exist when the vested interests of industry become inextricably entangled.

One thing's for sure - it puts VW's NOx emissions shenanigans into some kind of perspective...

.

rT-7

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#24

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:33 pm
by Poptop320 •

| 2.634 Posts

This is my personal view having towed with a petrol and diesel, there is no comparison regards low end torque from a diesel car which is required when dragging a caravan, at the moment you need a very big gas guzzling petrol engine before you start to get the same towing performances.

My dci 1.5 engine chugs out 137 CO2 which was less than my previous 1300cc petrol car, it has a healthy 240Nm torque and it returns an impressive 42mpg whilst towing. Diesel engines are renowned to last twice as long as a petrol car so it has longevity making the need to change it out and essential repairs less frequent.

Petrol engines are getting more powerful and smaller, Dacia will be bringing out a 1.2 petrol engine in 2016 and it will have 123bhp with 250Nm torque
My only concern with a small light engine is would it then have the 80% car to caravan reduced?

The best analogy I can use is that you wouldnt use a race horse to pull a cart...

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#25

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:36 pm
by Wordspace (deleted)

Quote: Agger wrote in post #15

To be honest and not at all arguementative just another point of view we had a petrol RAV4 it was the 2 litre vvti engine manual and it was easily the worst towcar we've had!

You've said this once or twice before, Gray, and I respect your view. I have to say, though, that this was our third RAV (all of them short wheelbase 2-litre petrol models) and though I've driven lots of cars in lots of contexts (including when I worked on Top Gear) the RAVs have been the most consistently enjoyable and reliable. I must admit, though, that I'd had no prior experience of towing so had nothing to compare it with.

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#26

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:46 pm
by Agger (deleted)

Then thats probably the difference ours was a lwb, which prob adds quite a bit, but like you I stand by what I say

I also think that what a lot of us fail to realise is the amount of power it takes to move say a 2.25 ton swb Shogun, then you add a caravan and your talking close to 3.5 ton.

If your prime mover is only say 1.5 ton but with more power, torque than above then you have a more powerful car BUT it does'nt make it better.

I've driven most things, as I said before I passed my test driving something with a 27 ltr ex spitfire engine! But for me the petrol / diesel debate is just something that goes on and on and on!

What I drive won't change how someone breaths or anything else, it's what WE ALL drive that will sort that out

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#27

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:12 pm
by hob (deleted)

Quote: hob wrote in post #1

So I suppose the question is do petrol cars tow differently to diesel? I'm guessing I will have to rev it a bit more pulling away and maybe change gear a bit more often?

Specs

2L diesel H\power 140 torque 350nm
1.8L petrol H\power 138 torque 175nm

so similar H\p but 1\2 the torque

Getting the new car Monday but probably not towing with it until next year.

Forgot to say its another Insignia

Well, some interesting stuff there.
With regard to will changing the car make a difference medically? I think yes it will after seeing a clip on tv saying pollution in the drivers cab was about 4 times higher than ambient (means outside in general) the stuff in the drivers cab coming from your own engine

the only debate being how much difference it will make, anyway the deed is done now and the new car is sitting on the drive.

Some very interesting comparisons on how they drive,
the cars both have a "change up a gear" indicator on the dash
The 2L diesel wanted a change from 4th to 5th gear @ 50 mph and 6th gear @ 60mph
And the new 1.8L petrol wants a change from 4th to 5th gear @ 35mph and 6th gear @ 44mph
so considerably lower meaning more gear changes (towing or not)

Its not really a fair comparison as the Insignia went through a facelift in 2013 during which the gearbox was revamped so I'm basically comparing apples with bananas to some extent

very doubtful it will be used to tow now until the spring, but it is nice to have a new (6 months old) car the last one was 3 years old when I got it.

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#28

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:53 pm
by Deeps (deleted)

Quote: hob wrote in post #27
.......after seeing a clip on tv saying pollution in the drivers cab was about 4 times higher than ambient (means outside in general) the stuff in the drivers cab coming from your own engine........

Not having seen the T.V. clip that you refer too, Nev, I'll hesitate a guess and say that there must have been a bit of misunderstanding somewhere along the line. If what is being referred to is the pollution created within your own cars engine then how, considering it's a closed internal combustion engine system, can the products of combustion i.e. exhaust gases, feed back into your own cab? If that were the case we'd have all long since been dead due to CO poisoning and those choosing to commit suicide by feeding a pipe from the exhaust in through the window have, or will be, wasting their time as a much simpler way would be just to drive normally for a few miles. There's something wrong in what you're stating don't you think?

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#29

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:02 pm
by hob (deleted)

I wondered about that? but it was town commuter type running so maybe pulled in by the heater while stopped?
As I already said its done now, and no rattly engine or dpf filter to worry about but it does appear from the onboard computer to do about 15 mpg less. than the deisel

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#30

RE: Petrol towcar

in We've got it down to a T Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:47 pm
by Taffy (deleted)

I tow with a petrol 2.0 auto C-max and pull a Triton. Get 35mpg not towing and 33mpg when towing. Cant say I notice that its towing and have to check my speed as it it flies along.