#1

Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:04 am
by Randa france | 13.256 Posts

I had a very interesting exchange of PMs with John Poptop320 yesterday about the Dacia Duster. John has owned this brand for a number of year now and I was interested to find out more and to ask him what he thought of a 19 plate DACIA DUSTER 1.6 SCe Comfort 5dr that is for sale in our area.

I thought that being a modern 1.6 petrol engine it might be one to look at for pulling our lightweight Troll. John came back and pointed out to me that although it's packing 115bhp it only has 156nm of torque. In other words, couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding

Now I'm in the dark so thought I'd try and learn more about these torque ratings from you lot. For example our deisel VW has 320 max nm of torque (140bhp) and I've read that I need to be looking upwards of 200nm of torque to get some useful pulling power.

So that's me lost. Please help.

Randa


ERIBAFOLK POP UP EVERYWHERE 1999 Eriba Troll 530 pushing a VW Touran 2L TDi Match . FORUM ADMINISTRATOR


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Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:46 am | Scroll up

#2

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:43 am
by eribaMotters | 5.585 Posts

Our now long gone poverty spec engined diesel Touran and Yeti had 110bhp and 250N/m torque. I was told the torque figure is important as that is what gives the grunt/pulling power. The bhp is the acceleration bit, like a sprinter. I have only had a couple of people come back to me over the years and dispute this.
Our current Audi A3 1.5L petrol has 150bhp and 250N/m torque. It pulls better than our two previous diesels.
A while ago I did start looking at what I would replace it with when the time comes and narrowed it down to the same engine in a Skoda Karoq, a 2.0L petrol Volvo XC40 and a 2.0L petrol Mazda CX5. The Mazda is a lot of car for the money with over 160bhp, but the non turbo engine is low on torque. When you read through towing reviews this is what would appear to be it's drawback. This would tie in with what you have heard about the torque figures.
If looking for a good 2nd hand motor I would be heading for a VAG engined 1.4/1.5L petrol. They all have 150bhp and 250N/m torque. The auto is also supposedly the better bet as the gearbox is stronger than the manual. The added bonus is you would also have a very good economical everyday car.

Colin


Forum Moderator. aka Oscar - Audi A3 1.5 petrol - oh dear me, I've gone to the darkish side and bought a Feeling after 4 Tourings


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Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2024 11:14 am | Scroll up

#3

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 12:21 pm
by Steve and Debbie | 1.108 Posts

My 2016 Nissan Pulsar has the Renault 1.5 diesel found in many cars of that age.including Dacia. It's torque is 250Nm @2000 rpm. That's comfortable towing a Puck but I wouldn't want less. The latest small turbo charged engines have more torque than the larger petrol your looking at. I would only consider a diesel of that age. What you need is high torque at low revs for comfortable towing. IMO


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#4

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 12:22 pm
by Pepé Le Pew | 2.752 Posts

Quote: eribaMotters wrote in post #2
Our now long gone poverty spec engined diesel Touran and Yeti had 110bhp and 250N/m torque. I was told the torque figure is important as that is what gives the grunt/pulling power. The bhp is the acceleration bit, like a sprinter. I have only had a couple of people come back to me over the years and dispute this…
Could I be the third person?

As far as I’m aware - and the edges are a bit blurred because of gearing and stuff - more horsepower gives you greater speed, but more torque gets you to it more quickly.

I think generally torque trumps power.

When people say that a car pulls well, that’s a manifestation of torque rather than horsepower, and if someone says that their car really pulls, they’re talking (bragging, usually) about how quickly it accelerates.

.



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#5

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 3:04 pm
by Poptop320 | 2.631 Posts

In the Dacia Duster petrol engine line up they do a 130 TCe engine which has 130bhp but pushes out 240 Nm of torque, This was the same torque as my first diesel 1.5 dci Duster in 2013 and it had plenty of power to pull my 900kg Famila 320.
The rpm is also an important factor on how hard the engine has to work to attain the max torque, the Duster turbo charged petrol 4 cylinder 130TCe engine reaches 240Nm of torque at 1600rpm where as my turbo charged 2021 1.5 diesel 4x4 Duster hits its max 260Nm of torque at 2000rpm.


When I go on holiday I like to pop my top!
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#6

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:23 pm
by Steamdrivenandy | 1.048 Posts

Generally speaking turbocharged petrol engines give their maximum torque over a wider spread of revs than a diesel engine, so the theory goes that to achieve similar levels of performance you have to change gear more often with a diesel.

The industry recommendations for a comfortable tow is 40bhp per tonne and 80lb/ft of torque per tonne. A 1.6Sce Comfort 2WD manual has 115bhp and 115lb/ft of torque. It's kerbweight is 1179kg and its max weight is 1412kg and towing limit 1400kg. Loaded for a trip, say, it weighs 1300kg plus an 'ahem' lightweight Welsh Troll at 1000 Welsh kg's gives a train of 2.3 tonnes or so. 115bhp divided by 2.3 is 50bhp/tonne, so well above the 40 recommendation but with 115lb.ft the torque is also 50lb/ft per tonne which is well below the target 80. So it really doesn't have the grunt necessary.

It's companion 1.5 diesel Comfort 2WD manual has 114bhp and 192lb/ft of torque. It's kerbweight is 1320kg and maximum weight 1548kg with a 1500kg towing limit. loaded the same it will weigh 1.44 tonnes and with the same lightweight Welsh Troll at 1000kg the train is 2.44 tonnes. 114bhp divided by 2.44 = 47bhp/tonne so still well above the 40. 192lb/ft of torque divided by 2.44 = 79 lb/ft per tonne, almost spot on the required 80 figure.

The writer quotes these as examples and cannot accept any liability for others personal actions. Welsh Troll weights are a matter of conjecture and Welsh kg's can go up as well as down.


I had nothing to do on this hot afternoon
But to settle down and write you a line


Skoda Karoq 1.5 Petrol DSG and a 420. A Bailey Phoenix + 420, with oven, microwave, shower cubicle, solar panel, ATC and external gas point.


Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:25 pm | Scroll up

#7

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:43 pm
by Aaron Calder | 3.834 Posts

I met a Welsh Troll once at an Eribafolk meet about 10 years ago.

I thought it was Father Christmas on his holidays


Forum Administrator
2003 Triton 420 and Audi A4 2.0Tfsi S-line SE Cabriolet


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Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:43 pm | Scroll up

#8

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:10 am
by Steamdrivenandy | 1.048 Posts

Not so lightweight though.


I had nothing to do on this hot afternoon
But to settle down and write you a line


Skoda Karoq 1.5 Petrol DSG and a 420. A Bailey Phoenix + 420, with oven, microwave, shower cubicle, solar panel, ATC and external gas point.
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#9

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Tue Jul 30, 2024 9:30 am
by Simboc2004 | 788 Posts

Hmmm. Change gear more often with a diesel? I don't think that's right. The rev band is almost always narrower than a petrol engine, but max torque is produced at lower revs. The old adage was that you had to rev the nuts off a small petrol engine to get it going, whilst a diesel would pull away from much lower revs. Modern engines are highly computer controlled and almost universally turbocharged to produce better power and torque, but there's still no substitute for capacity...

Our 2011 Volvo V70 has a 2 litre, 5 cylinder turbodiesel engine and it produces around 180bhp and 400Nm of torque (what caravan?). It only has a single turbo, whereas many more modern engines have twin turbos (of different sizes,) to give a wider spread of torque. My wife's 2017 Volvo V40 has the more modern 2 litre, 4 cylinder diesel engine that produces 190bhp and 400Nm of torque with excellent fuel consumption and a wider spread of power/torque due to the twin turbo installation. It's also Euro 6 compliant.This will become our tow car shortly.

Of course, to complicate matters, electric cars produce max torque from start, which is why they accelerate so fast and do, in theory, make excellent tow cars - shame about the range...


Poppy, our 2005 Eriba 430GT, leading our Volvo V70 astray...
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#10

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Tue Jul 30, 2024 1:26 pm
by eribaMotters | 5.585 Posts

I would go along with less gear changes on a petrol engine versus a modern diesel. On my 2019 petrol the max torque comes in at the same revs but is then available across a rev range of double that on my previous 2014 diesel.

Colin


Forum Moderator. aka Oscar - Audi A3 1.5 petrol - oh dear me, I've gone to the darkish side and bought a Feeling after 4 Tourings
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#11

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:36 pm
by Steamdrivenandy | 1.048 Posts

That's the point Colin, you can hang onto the revs with a petrol and still be accelerating, where with a diesel you'd need to change up to maintain that acceleration.


I had nothing to do on this hot afternoon
But to settle down and write you a line


Skoda Karoq 1.5 Petrol DSG and a 420. A Bailey Phoenix + 420, with oven, microwave, shower cubicle, solar panel, ATC and external gas point.
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#12

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:21 pm
by Simboc2004 | 788 Posts

Petrol cars were not always so accommodating - modern petrol engines are considerably improved in both power delivery, torque and economy.

Although I'd really like a big V8...


Poppy, our 2005 Eriba 430GT, leading our Volvo V70 astray...


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Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:21 pm | Scroll up

#13

RE: Talk Torque

in We've got it down to a T Wed Jul 31, 2024 9:48 am
by Randa france | 13.256 Posts

I think I've become allergic to car buying. So many to chose from and so many techie things to learn about. Something we've not done for 14 years.

Since we had the major breakdown with our beautiful Touran (now fixed touch wood), we've whittled the car we need down to only one model. The one we've got. Our Touran, with all the rear seats taken out has a huge amoung of luggage space, perfect for camping gear, bikes and cat. Sadly, we'll have to religate it to second car status.

However, having decided on a Tiguan we had out head turned yesterday afternoon by a very low mileage 15 plate Ford Kuga. Lots more space than a Tiguan and a lovely looking car. 2litre TDi Titanium with all the extra bits and drives well. Frightening really as it feels like I'm sitting in a cockpit with so many dials and buttons surrounding me.

When we drove old faithful home with loads of familiar buttons and dials, it was so relaxing but hey-ho, got to move with the times on a limited budget, and just for the record, the Kuga is 150bhp and gives out 370 nm of torque. That should be adequate

A model of car not unknown to us as one of our kids had one for a number of years and was delighted with it.

Randa


ERIBAFOLK POP UP EVERYWHERE 1999 Eriba Troll 530 pushing a VW Touran 2L TDi Match . FORUM ADMINISTRATOR


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Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2024 9:54 am | Scroll up


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